Patriots LB snapshot

Mike,
Any sense of what Burgess would cost? Would a 2nd rounder in next year's draft do it?

The curiosity of adding Burgess is still there atleast until the time camp starts next Thursday. But either way this years OLB corp. will consis or Thomas, Woods, Crable, Redd, and Player X. See Ya later TBC!

I think they did the right thing with the OLBs. You have to get younger at some point.

Also Ty Warren just came off double groin surgery. So clearly he was not healthy last season. I think people undersell this when it comes to our pass rush. Having a healthy Warren and Seymour will open holes for the OLBs to get the job done.

Personally I don't see where the infatuation with Burgess comes from. He is a one trick pony, and while he is pretty good at that one trick the Patriots need more out of their OLBs. Obviously if they have the opportunity to add him at a cheap price then they'll do it, but I'd hate to see them trade away a valuable draft pick for a player who may not be an improvement over what they already have. As has been mentioned before the overhaul of the secondary should help the pass rush. If it doesn't then there isn't a linebacker in the NFL the Pats could trade for who would help their pass defense.

Also an improved secondary will give the rush that extra second or two it needs. The D will be better. If someone teams up with Thomas from that outside spot, plus with Seymour and Wilfork playing in contract years, Green and Warren back to health, the "09 defense could become a monster.

David, you need to slap yourself in the face.

A SECOND ROUNDER???

Thank the GODS that Coach Bill has the vision to realize that Championships are won because of DEPTH OF TALENT, and NOT by spazzing out and mortgaging the future every time some high-priced Vet is available!

Second Rounders are absolutely worth their weight in GOLD, my friend. Burgess is ORDINARY. No way in HELL Coach Bill will part with a Second Rounder for that guy. THANK you.

If Bruschi goes down, then what?? Mayo is going to be a star but the Pats are very thin at ILB. Paris Lenon never played in a 3-4 before which will take time. The loss of the rookie Mckenzie hurt the depth of the position.
The Steelers LB's are very good BUT we are very thin at ILB like ur pats. Farrior is 34 and there is no backup that has done anything BUT if you been watching the news, the Steelers have bigger problems....

Agree with Tom...Burgess is not an "upgrade" to the 2 young OLB's on the roster now (Crable, Redd) There is no question BB would have made an off seaeson move or draft day pick if he felt the current OLB's on the roster needed an upgrade. I know our exposure to Crable and Redd has been minimal but I wouldn't be surprised to see one of them emerge (give them 10 games) as high producers in the defensive scheme. I'm going to predict Crable will be an NFL stud and we'll all be talking about hime like we were Mayo...After all...how man 6'5" (Crable) and 6'6" (Redd) OLB's were in the draft in '09? I think we have a couple diamonds in the rough right here at home.

I think that the Pats defense is going to be disgustingly good this season. Everyone that doubts needs to understand that Belicheck is a defensive coach by nature. He would NOt have traded Vrabel had he thought he wasn't getting the fair share. He sees something in Chung as well as our new secondary. Last preseason there were young McGinest comparions to Crable. He is 6'6" and like 240 or something like that. He's a big boy and he's quick. Woods has been developing in our system now for the past few seasons. If he took anything form the likes of Samuel and Hobbs, two other Pats "farm system" players, I Think Woods will be NASTY. He has more tackels than any other special teamer. Now put him on the field for a full 4 quarters and see what he can do. The only thing I am concerned with is the ability of the defense to mend without the leadership of Harrison.

On what planet is a guy who has 48.5 sacks in the last four years not an upgrade over Shawn Crable and Vince Redd??? Last year Crable wasn't even activated on game days before he got hurt. Are you kidding me?

It's one thing to debate how much you might be willing to give up to get Burgess, but it takes a certain kind of rosy-spectacled Pats fan to do the math and come up with Crable + Redd is greater than or equal to Burgess.
And to Fanatical Yankee: If I think this team is set to win a Super Bowl but is missing one pass rusher, I will gladly give up a piece of "gold" to get one, if I have 3 pieces of said gold in next year's draft.

Its true that depth is a concern at ILB, but the cupboard isn't bare. They do have Lenon, but I see him as more of a Larry Izzo right now, meaning he will be huge on special teams but not very effective for the defense. The name to keep an eye on is Gary Guyton, though. He played well as an undrafted free agent rookie last year and I'm really hoping an offseason of studying and hitting the weights will really pay off for him. I know its only a pipe dream at this point, but I would be a very happy Patriots fan if Guyton were able to make the leap and take over the starting role from Bruschi going into the season. Doubtful, but I'd like to see it.

Tim's right. If we had drafted Redd and Crable THIS year we wouldn't be having this conversation, so what's the difference? And even better, they've been in the system for a while now. You can't draft that. Reading some of these discussions makes me realize why some teams stay bad, they are the ones who give away 2nd round picks...ect. Steelers Fan, tell the truth. If you could swap ALL personel (coaches too) from the Pats to the Steelers, wouldn't you? If you say no you're not as smart as you think you are ;-)

I just don't think the linebacker position is going to be such a concern this year. We have enough, and plenty of the "right" types, for this year's scheme. I believe Coach B is/will create/invent/adapt/implement a different kind of defensive scheme this year to meet head-on the challenges of the more pass-friendly NFL with the attendant rules changes. I mean, the touchstone to success in the NFL is innovation. Such scheme will, in my humble opinion, necessarily involve more DBs (5-6) on the field on virtually every down, some playing closer to the line, e.g., Tank Williams, et al. The LBs will primarily contain, and occasionally blitz, but not be as necessary scheme-wise as fast backliners and cover guys. So, from where I sit, we seem to have adequate sideline-to-sideline speed and in-your-face stoppage LB strength to uniformly control 3-5 yards of the line of scrimmage. The key to the team's D will be getting the downfield guys to work together as a unit.

"On what planet is a guy who has 48.5 sacks in the last 4 years not an upgrade over Shawn Crable and Vince Redd???"....I believe its planet Belechick 2 points.for David "I steal quotes from ESPN broadcasters but don't really know what I'm talking about"...
1. OLB scheme in NE is not the same as in Oak...we ask our LB's to do more then just be a sack specialist...set edge...play within a scheme....pretty sure thats working out in the big picture scheme of things as last I looked we had a better record then Oak last ...ohhh....8 years
2. The league is a WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR ME LATELY league...Burgess had 3.5 sacks last year ....you have to project over the next 2-3 years....sorry....I take my chances with Redd and Crable at 23 yrs old vs Burgess at 32 plus a 2nd round pick

Greg..
Are you feeling ok?? Your asking me if I could switch personel would I????
I would not switch my 2 outstanding OLB's Harrison and Woodley and not switch the best safety in Polamalu..I WOULD NOT SWITCH ANYBODY!!!!!!.I just don't get your statement....I never say anything bad about Patriots on here. I give my objections and if you look other steelers fans who come on here, all they do is bash your team...

1. Paris Lenon will have a bigger year than expected.
2. Shawn Crable will be solid.
3. Tank Williams is back (if he makes the roster) and NE loaded up on Strong Safeties and Safety/Corner hybrids. I'd expect some of those hybrid safety/linebacker looks to show up in the playbook with three safeties on the field.
4. Look for more 4/3's and 5/2's with more rotations of Jarvis Green, Mike Wright and Ron Brace.

NICE.

Some SCHAWEET posts, there, especially Ian @ 9, Tim @ 8, Greg @ 12, Tom @ 11, and Bill @ 14!

1 ~ Forgive my earlier strident tone, Dave, but I grow weary of having to explain the basics: One cannot simply stuff one's roster with established veterans, and pay them all their bloated salaries. There is this thing, you see, called the Salary Cap. You HAVE heard of the RedSkins, haven't you? ;o)

2 ~ Explaining the Basics, Part II: There is this thing called the Aging Process, my friend. As Bill shouldn't've had to point out: Burgess had 3.5 Sacks last year, and has many years of wear on those tires. Crable and Redd, on the other hand, are young, fast, enormous, and fresh. By your logic, Junior Seau would be preferable to Jerod Mayo @ ILB. Use your HEAD, man.

3 ~ As I've pointed out many times, and as Ian presciently reminds us: Crable, Redd, and Woods are physical BEASTS. I asked myself the same question a few months ago, Ian, and the answer is NO: There was NOBODY in that draft with the combination of Size and Speed of ANY of those 3!!! As Greg @ 12 reminds us, and to which I'll add: Had we drafted the 3 of them, this year, 100% of the Patriot fans who're wailing and gnashing their teeth, today, would be FROTHING AT THE MOUTH, to get this season started.

Rest assured: When I consider the historical precedent of of how often players of talent and dedication go from roster fodder to disruptive FORCES in their second years ~ due to the necessary 18 month incubation period, as playbook text evolves ~ via repetition ~ into Instinct ~ I AM frothing at the mouth: We can literally expect Quantum Leaps from Jarod Mayo, Gary Guyton, Shawn Crable, Vince Redd, Terrence Wheatley, and John Wihlite!!! And Pat Chung and Darius Butler ~ Patrick " 22 Year Old Clone of Rodney Harrison" Chung, in particular, have "First Year Impact Player" written ALL over them!!!

4 ~ Explaining the Basics, Part III: Heh! Bubby, if I gotta explain why it would be COSMICALLY stupid to trade a juicy 2nd Rounder ~ who will probably turn out to be a guy who produces LIGHT YEARS ahead of his $500,000 Salary for 4 years ~ for a guy who will waste his ONLY year on his contract getting used to the system, while we pay him $3,500,000, and cut 3 additional critical role players to make room under the Cap...then you are BEYOND help!

Without even having been here, I can GUARANTEE you were screaming for us to trade a FIRST Rounder for Jason Taylor a year ago!! How would THAT have turned out???

5 ~ Tom, there ain't no way in HELL that Guyton isn't at the VERY least getting 50% of the snaps at the Opening Bell. Guyton is a FORCE, and you and I both know that Bill Belichick runs a STRICT Meritocracy: The Best 11 WILL PLAY.

Teddy Ice Cold Bruschi is now our 4th best ILB, and knock on wood, because we're an injury away from being thin, there, but right now we have 3 guys who are starter worthy @ ILB ~ 2 of whom are Ascending Forces, and 1 of whom ~ Lenon ~ is a BADLY underrated PlayMaker! ~ and a 4th guy ~ that's Bruschi ~ who can fill in, in a pinch. That's more Depth of Talent ~ A critical theme that, yes, I keep preaching ~ then we've ever had, there, and being able to keep that rotation rolling goes a LONG way towards sustaining the health of all 4!

take a deep breath, Bill

If Derrick Burgess is such an ill fit in the Pats scheme, why were they engaged in talks to trade for him dating back to the draft? Obviously they think he's a fit.

And to make the leap that the Pats record being better than the Raiders answers the question of whether Burgess would be a good addition is just silly.

Pats will be good either way. All I'm saying is, I'd like to add a good pass rusher and I think Burgess fits that bill.

Just to reiterate and be obnoxious about it, because ~ God KNOWS ~ I'm appropriately harsh when it's warranted:

NICE.

Some SCHAWEET posts, there, especially Ian @ 9, Tim @ 8, Greg @ 12, Tom @ 11, Bill @ 14....AND Rowf @ 13! That 6 out of 7 posts ~ from 6 different posters, mind you! ~ that offer thoughtful and insightful prose! We might not repeat that ALL YEAR, so I hope I'll be forgiven for breaking out the bubbly! Hah!

*Steelers Fan: Thanks for your continuing objectivity and insight, Bro: I personally love it when fans from other teams come here to Hate: It just shows who they think is King, and I love it! But I love the Steelers, begrudge them absolutely NOTHING of their success, and greatly appreciate thoughtful posters like you, who add a valuable and insightful perspective!

You obviously GET the spirit of competition, where we're ALL striving for Glory. The Steelers are Rivals, not ENEMIES.

Only chumps whose Patriot Envy is so acute that they're compelled to troll the Net for Yankee Sites like this one, and squeal their Hatred at us arouse MY laughter and contempt!

You, on the other hand, do nothing but add to the value of the discussion, and I, for one, greatly appreciate it!

"4. Look for more 4/3's and 5/2's with more rotations of Jarvis Green, Mike Wright and Ron Brace."
I think 5-2 would be great on 3rd down pass situations. I can see a Defensive Line that includes Adalius Thomas and Jarvis Green as DE's, and Seymour, Wilfork/Wright and Brace/Warren as DT's with Guyton and Mayo as the linebackers. With that new secondary, I think the quarterbacks will have it difficult to complete a pass just like they all did last year.

anyone consider with the drafting of ron brace we might be seeing more 4-3 and nickel packages this year? just a thought.

Dave, we agree on this much: I wouldn't mind seeing us ad a Vet to the mix.

But we can add Roosevelt Colvin for free, and to my mind he is ~ 18 months removed from the 2007 injury ~ MUCH more likely to be a useful addition than Burgess. Furthermore, he'd come cheap ~ so his presence wouldn't hurt the amazing Depth of Talent Coach Bill's carefully accumulated over 8 years ~ he'd contribute immediately ~ because he knows the system backwards and forwards ~ and he'd help the 3 Beasts to master the system.

Coach Bill makes very few mistakes. This would be one of them.

GO FINS!!!!! WE ROCKED YOU GUYS.....HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE IN SECOND MUST SUCK........JUST LIKE BRADDYY

Fanatical Yankee,
Thanks for the kind words!!!!
WHO IS READY FOR SOME FOOTBALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I AM!!!

*Side Note, regarding Fish Fan, if I may be forgiven for quoting my own words >

"I personally love it when fans from other teams come here to Hate: It just shows who they think is King, and I love it! "

Hah! EAT it, Fish Fan! Your Daddy is BACK.

Nice work in the playoffs, by the way! ;o)

If Belichek isn't worried, why should the fans be worried?
I think one of the young guys like Shawn Crable or Vince Redd
will emerge, maybe both will?
I believe Belichek believes so or else those guys wouldn't
be around.
Besides, I think the offense is going to be intimidating every opposing
defense in the league. Tom Brady back in true form, let's see, Moss, Welker,
and Joey Galloway in the lineup, what a nightmare for any opposing defensive corrdinators that will try to scheme this offense? S P E E D K I L L S

I'm not sure why Belichick let Vrabel go- he had a good contract, and even played for a discount to enable us to field a stronger team, and he was productive and a good citizen. And I'm not sure why Belichick didn't sign Mauluaga when he fell to the early second round. (I had the same thoughts years ago about Mosi's boy, Lofa...) I'm sure that Belichick has his reasons. Hopefully they'll become clear soon. You don't have to make every decision right to have a perfect season. But it helps. The year we didn't get Lynch and didn't have a solid backup in the middle of the run defense it came back to haunt us. I imagine that BB has a plan here...

I continue to be amazed that people think Shawn Crable is the NEXT Willie McGinest when he has NOT played 1 down.

Do you think he looked like McGinest in 3 exhibition games.

The same goes for Redd.

Also what happens when Bruschi goes down with injury. They are incredibly thin at LB.

The Steelers do focus on the D especially linebacker, very impressive even with Farrior at 34. Plus they lost a back up to free agency.

"I continue to be amazed that people think Shawn Crable is the NEXT Willie McGinest when he has NOT played 1 down."
I went through every post and didn't see one comment suggesting Crable was the next Willie McGinnest...and thats probably a good thing since Willie is over the hill at this point...

I think Redd will take it just from the videos i watched ... he is big and fast to me he looked better than Crable and actually has gotten a few snaps.

Mr. Cynic, I think why people are so high on Crable is because it was glaringly obvious hat he was the only one who was consistently making plays in the backfield and getting to the QB last preseason. Much, much potential! Although Belichick was concerned that his legs were a little slender for a Patriot OLB, he saw enough to spend a third rounder on him. I don't think Bill (or the rest of us psuedo-experts) will be disappointed once he finally gets on the field. Keep the faith, brothers!